Bethanne Patrick: 'Infidelity Sleuth' is a fascinating book with lots of practical advice on a very serious and very worrisome topic for many, many women. How do you know if you are ready to start checking up on your spouse?
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Julia Hartley Moore: What happens immediately is your intuition kicks in and straightaway you know something's going on. Women are especially intuitive and if he's done it before you're going to be way more alert to an affair. But it's those little middling things that don't go away. Just for example, he might grab a shirt that he doesn't normally wear to work and you'll ask him, 'Why are you wearing that shirt this morning?' And he'll come up with some excuse, like, 'Well it was the first thing I grabbed' or 'Everything else was in the wash-basket.' Now most women will just put that aside. But maybe next week he'll do something else, and slowly you'll think, 'Hang on a minute.' And that's the thing that initially starts you off. But when it gets to be more than that, that's when you go to somebody else.
Bethanne Patrick: You have 10 signs of how to know if he's having an affair. What are some of those signs?
Julia Hartley Moore: I think the first one, the most important one, is the changes in behavior. Most women take care of themselves: they have their hair color, they have their nails; and that's harder to detect. But with a man what we usually find is all of the sudden, out of the blue, he decides, 'My God, I've got to lose weight. Look at the state of me. I'd better start going to the gym. Gee, I'll change my hairstyle. I might just change what I'm wearing.' And that'll be because he's met somebody. That, out of the blue, to a wife is going to be like a neon sign going off. Here's a guy who's been a couch potato all his life, and he's starting to jog every morning. So that's the most important sign. The other one is the mobile telephone.
Bethanne Patrick: What about the telephone?
Julia Hartley Moore: The telephone has made it easier to uncover an affair. The first thing someone will do when they're having an affair is their mobile phone becomes like a baby. They breast-feed it. They can't leave it alone. They'll take it to the bathroom with them. They'll constantly be checking it. And woe betide any wife who goes near it. If you do go near it, everything will be deleted. Usually. And if you ahold get the phone records you'll begin to see a pattern: he'll phone the girlfriend to arrange to meet her; he'll go and meet her; after that meeting, the first person he'll phone is the wife. And then he'll probably phone the girlfriend again. You'll see a pattern of telephone calls and you'll see a lot of calls.
Bethanne Patrick: In other words he's calling the wife to diffuse some of his anxiety and guilt after calling the girlfriend.
Julia Hartley Moore: Absolutely. He calls just to make sure everything's fine at home and that she doesn't know anything, because then he can relax. But you'll also see a lot of calls in the course of a day or the course of a month that are excessive. And there's no way you can explain those away because girls don't even call their girlfriends as many times as someone will call someone they're having an affair with.
Bethanne Patrick: Say your intuition's kicked in and you know something's wrong: you've seen those records; you've seen an odd pattern. When do you know it's time to call in professionals to check up on your cheating spouse?
Julia Hartley Moore: Well I think once you've got all those things, then you actually do know something's going on. But usually it's surveillance that's going to uncover what's actually happening. By that time you'll think, 'Gosh, there's a certain day of the week I just can't get ahold of him' or 'He seems to have these business meetings later in the evening on certain days.' Or he'll say he's got to do more things. All of the sudden more things will come up. And that you'll need to do is just get somebody to check: is he where he says he is. Maybe the first time that's all you'll do, and you'll find out, 'No he's not.'
Bethanne Patrick: But what about you? Couldn't you do that? Or should you not do that?
Julia Hartley Moore: Well you can, but the one thing is, most people -- even private investigators -- the first thing, and no matter how often we do this, the biggest thing is we think 'My God, do they know we're following them? Do they know they're being tailed?' Now they never do, but it's just ... it's a human nature thing. So for the spouse, you feel ten times more obvious doing this thing. So it's easier. And it takes the stress and strain away from you. You don't need to put yourself through all of that anxiety. It's so detrimental to your health.
Bethanne Patrick: How long have you been doing this type of private investigation now?
Julia Hartley Moore: I've had my company for 10 years. But I've had 30 years experience. So a long time. And I haven't just done it in New Zealand.
Bethanne Patrick: In your 30 years of experience, have you seen differences in the way that sexes cheat? I know that 'Infidelity Sleuth' is really much more for women, but obviously you've seen the other side as well.
Julia Hartley Moore: Well it is for women, because I mainly work for them. And the reason for that is that just as many women betray, but women don't get caught. Women are much better liars and they have a plan. They're much craftier.
Bethanne Patrick: Is that all it is? Or is it because men want to get caught more than women do?
Julia Hartley Moore: No they don't. They certainly don't. Men do not want to divide the assets; they do not want to give half away. They don't want anyone to know they've done anything wrong. Men hate the fact that -- they want to save face at all costs, whereas women don't have that. It's not important to women.
Bethanne Patrick: One of the most important issues with infidelity is the financial problems that can result. If you suspect a spouse of betraying you, what kinds of accounts and papers should you begin to look at?
Julia Hartley Moore: With emotional infidelity we usually find financial infidelity. The first thing women need to do is to always take a keen interest in the finances. If they feel something's not right they need to get their hands on the bank statements, the credit card statements, the telephone accounts. And they've got to check for property, because there're times we find that men have either bought properties to conduct affairs in, or bought properties for the lover. They've set these women up, because it's all matrimonial money that's going into that. And as you know, you're not allowed to do that. But we notice pretty much when someone is capable of betraying emotionally, they are also capable of betraying financially.
Bethanne Patrick: Given the thirty years people have been working in this business, how do you think people can strengthen against that threat?
Julia Hartley Moore: I think it's like anything: you've got to start beforehand. It's what you need to do before you get married; it's the groundwork. Really what you need to do is to make it very clear what you will and will not accept. But also I think women have got to really respect themselves. We've made huge progress in other areas, but in terms of ourselves, we really have not made much progress at all. And it saddens me to see it, because 95 percent of the women [who] go through this actually stay with their betraying partners. So I think you need to respect yourself to know: how many times does infidelity have to happen before it's too many times? Really. Because once the trust is gone, to try to rebuild it is huge.
Bethanne Patrick: You have 10 signs of how to know if he's having an affair. What are some of those signs?
Julia Hartley Moore: I think the first one, the most important one, is the changes in behavior. Most women take care of themselves: they have their hair color, they have their nails; and that's harder to detect. But with a man what we usually find is all of the sudden, out of the blue, he decides, 'My God, I've got to lose weight. Look at the state of me. I'd better start going to the gym. Gee, I'll change my hairstyle. I might just change what I'm wearing.' And that'll be because he's met somebody. That, out of the blue, to a wife is going to be like a neon sign going off. Here's a guy who's been a couch potato all his life, and he's starting to jog every morning. So that's the most important sign. The other one is the mobile telephone.
Bethanne Patrick: What about the telephone?
Julia Hartley Moore: The telephone has made it easier to uncover an affair. The first thing someone will do when they're having an affair is their mobile phone becomes like a baby. They breast-feed it. They can't leave it alone. They'll take it to the bathroom with them. They'll constantly be checking it. And woe betide any wife who goes near it. If you do go near it, everything will be deleted. Usually. And if you ahold get the phone records you'll begin to see a pattern: he'll phone the girlfriend to arrange to meet her; he'll go and meet her; after that meeting, the first person he'll phone is the wife. And then he'll probably phone the girlfriend again. You'll see a pattern of telephone calls and you'll see a lot of calls.
Bethanne Patrick: In other words he's calling the wife to diffuse some of his anxiety and guilt after calling the girlfriend.
Julia Hartley Moore: Absolutely. He calls just to make sure everything's fine at home and that she doesn't know anything, because then he can relax. But you'll also see a lot of calls in the course of a day or the course of a month that are excessive. And there's no way you can explain those away because girls don't even call their girlfriends as many times as someone will call someone they're having an affair with.
Bethanne Patrick: Say your intuition's kicked in and you know something's wrong: you've seen those records; you've seen an odd pattern. When do you know it's time to call in professionals to check up on your cheating spouse?
Julia Hartley Moore: Well I think once you've got all those things, then you actually do know something's going on. But usually it's surveillance that's going to uncover what's actually happening. By that time you'll think, 'Gosh, there's a certain day of the week I just can't get ahold of him' or 'He seems to have these business meetings later in the evening on certain days.' Or he'll say he's got to do more things. All of the sudden more things will come up. And that you'll need to do is just get somebody to check: is he where he says he is. Maybe the first time that's all you'll do, and you'll find out, 'No he's not.'
Bethanne Patrick: But what about you? Couldn't you do that? Or should you not do that?
Julia Hartley Moore: Well you can, but the one thing is, most people -- even private investigators -- the first thing, and no matter how often we do this, the biggest thing is we think 'My God, do they know we're following them? Do they know they're being tailed?' Now they never do, but it's just ... it's a human nature thing. So for the spouse, you feel ten times more obvious doing this thing. So it's easier. And it takes the stress and strain away from you. You don't need to put yourself through all of that anxiety. It's so detrimental to your health.
Bethanne Patrick: How long have you been doing this type of private investigation now?
Julia Hartley Moore: I've had my company for 10 years. But I've had 30 years experience. So a long time. And I haven't just done it in New Zealand.
Bethanne Patrick: In your 30 years of experience, have you seen differences in the way that sexes cheat? I know that 'Infidelity Sleuth' is really much more for women, but obviously you've seen the other side as well.
Julia Hartley Moore: Well it is for women, because I mainly work for them. And the reason for that is that just as many women betray, but women don't get caught. Women are much better liars and they have a plan. They're much craftier.
Bethanne Patrick: Is that all it is? Or is it because men want to get caught more than women do?
Julia Hartley Moore: No they don't. They certainly don't. Men do not want to divide the assets; they do not want to give half away. They don't want anyone to know they've done anything wrong. Men hate the fact that -- they want to save face at all costs, whereas women don't have that. It's not important to women.
Bethanne Patrick: One of the most important issues with infidelity is the financial problems that can result. If you suspect a spouse of betraying you, what kinds of accounts and papers should you begin to look at?
Julia Hartley Moore: With emotional infidelity we usually find financial infidelity. The first thing women need to do is to always take a keen interest in the finances. If they feel something's not right they need to get their hands on the bank statements, the credit card statements, the telephone accounts. And they've got to check for property, because there're times we find that men have either bought properties to conduct affairs in, or bought properties for the lover. They've set these women up, because it's all matrimonial money that's going into that. And as you know, you're not allowed to do that. But we notice pretty much when someone is capable of betraying emotionally, they are also capable of betraying financially.
Bethanne Patrick: Given the thirty years people have been working in this business, how do you think people can strengthen against that threat?
Julia Hartley Moore: I think it's like anything: you've got to start beforehand. It's what you need to do before you get married; it's the groundwork. Really what you need to do is to make it very clear what you will and will not accept. But also I think women have got to really respect themselves. We've made huge progress in other areas, but in terms of ourselves, we really have not made much progress at all. And it saddens me to see it, because 95 percent of the women [who] go through this actually stay with their betraying partners. So I think you need to respect yourself to know: how many times does infidelity have to happen before it's too many times? Really. Because once the trust is gone, to try to rebuild it is huge.
